Posts by drew sagan

6

Seeking a page from "The Chaos of Cults"

by Doug Mason in

i would like to thank people who previously helped me with van baalen's book "the chaos of cults".

this time, i am looking for the words on page 269 of the third edition, which i think was released in 1960. .

it seems to me that van baalen made wholesale changes with each edition, so i am very specific that it is the third edition i am seeking.

drew sagan

I looked around but it seems difficult to find. It's on google books but with a limited preview, and I don't think it's the version you're looking for.

What's in this book that interests you? Personally I'm not that big on books that discuss this subject that come from such a heavily religious backround. Like in Kingdom of the Cults there is a tendancy to mark as a cult a group that differs in theology and putting less emphasis on practices and policies. Steven Hassan is much better IMO because he comes at it from a psychological perspective and not a doctrinal one.

5

JW.Org/ To Feature Watchtower Audio Files Jan. 2008?

by Justitia Themis in

this was on a pro-jw website:.

jw1983 - new wt site .

https://www.jw.org/.

drew sagan

With the possiblity of "apostates" distributing the materials contained on the site I see either there being heavy access restrictions or a very basic selection of materials. I do not expect the JWs to be making their magazines in PDF anytime soon.

37

Has WTS abandoned "house to house" ministry?

by ozziepost in

many years ago now i remember hearing harold king sing the song he had composed whilst incarcerated for his beliefs in china; it was called "house to house".. nowadays it doesn't seem as though it's in favor.

notice its own description of its ministry which the wts has placed on its website:.

jehovah's witnesses are probably best known for their person-to-person ministry.

drew sagan

Enthusaism for field service has gone down, mainly because of one thing.

This religion is getting farther and farther away from its 'armageddeon around the corner mindset'.

Don't get me wrong, fervor about end times is still a key component to this religion. But you can never get the same kind of excitement out of 4th and 5th generation believers as you would out of new converts who believe that we are on the brink, especially if there are dates and time tables attached to the beliefs (i.e. 1914, 1925, 1975).

The Watchtower always refers back to people who where out in service during the times there was a date in place as "full of zeal". Big suprise there!

While there will continue to be an atmoshpere of anticipation for the end times to be fullfilled, it simply is not going to reach the kinds of peaks that it could if there where more specific claims as to when it is going to occur. Time continues to go on and people become less enthusiastic about giving the great "warning work".

In western lands feild service has evolved mainly into a time filler. Something you do because it's part of your religions rules. Time has slowed down passion for their beliefs.

20

SPIRITS OF DEAD LEADERS COMMUNICATE WITH WT.

by badboy in

jw
friends

i wonder what messages they pass on.

drew sagan

I've known of that quote for some time, but have never realized how completely absurd the entire paragraph was (or chapter for that matter). I love it when after reading this kind of nonsense JWs will say "what else could it mean?"

24

Made contact with an old jw(now exjw) boss of mine

by Jourles in

i come on tonight to see i had one new pm.

come to find out, it is from evidently who has been signed up on the board for over a year but has never posted.

this guy used to be an old boss of mine from way back when - i'd say around 12 years ago or so.

drew sagan

Welcome Evidently!

46

Of The 5 Meetings, Was There One You Hated More Than The Others?

by minimus in

jw
friends

usually, i enjoyed the public talk, if the speaker was good but i thought the theocratic ministry was boring!!!.

the service meeting was just a sales meeting.

the book studies were simply ridiculous.

drew sagan

I thought the public talk was the worst with the Watchtower as a close second. School and service meeting are next with the book study coming in last (bascially because it was the shortest )

20

"Loose Conduct" , what is the true definition?

by jefferywhat in

this term was actually one of the reasons i have started looking into the wtbs, i must be honest and say im am still looking objectively, so please dont avalanche my question.

i am in search for truth!!

does anyone know the actual root meaning of the word asel geia?

drew sagan

And in answer to your question, the reason it is such an issue is it seems quite unjust and draconian and completely opposed to the underlying theory of the christian judicial process.

if there even is supposed to be a theory of Christian judicial process

If you want to study this subject deeper I would suggest looking into the context of verses used to support the judicial comittee process. Leolaia has started a number of really good topics on the subject and i'm sure she'll be able to provide a link to them. One I can think of is this post:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/142548/2560739/post.ashx#2560739

74

Watchtower's annual Christmas edition - such hypocrisy!

by ozziepost in

isn't it amazing to see that the wts are fond of decrying christmas, yet each year they publish a christmas edition of the watchtower magazine!.

they make all sorts of claims about christmas and how wrong it is and all that but never fail to bring feature articles in thir december issues that take advantage of that.. what hypocrites!.

http://www.watchtower.org/e/20021215/article_01.htm.

drew sagan

From the Watchtowers perspective shunning Christmas is never really about the "truth" per se.

I remember being in Catholic school learning about how Jesus really wasn't born on December 25th and that there where other influences in how the holiday came about.

Why didn't this knowledge about the "truth" in Christmas change me and my classmates? Because the adults and kids alike simply didn't care!

Fast forward to me at the age 17 getting all excited about what the JWs where teaching me. They where able to make me believed that such things mattered. I know cared about issues that I could have cared less about years eairler simply because I was being told it was important.

The Watchtower does a great job at making people think that hardcore positions on these types of things matter. They attach to their rejection of Christmas loyalty to God, raising their own importance.

15

HOW SHOULD I PROCEED WITH THIS???

by Mary in

jw
friends

i received this email on friday from someone i know: .

i just got a call from the brother of the woman, *******, who is contemplating joining the jw group.

he told me that he had spoken to his sister about someone who had been a part of the group (i had told him about you), and, she said that she would be interested in talking to you.. .

drew sagan

I think that exposure to some of the more radical beliefs in the group is a good possible start. (and i'm not talking about blood!)

There are a number of "you've got to be kidding me" teachings that a good number of people new to the religion would look at with suspicion. They are buried and only brought out for the faithful to learn about. This would include:

- Jesus Christ coming down invisibly from heaven in 1918/19 and choosing the Watchtower
- Magazines written by J.F. Rutherford where fortold to come by the prophet Daniel
- The seven trumpet blasts of Revelation are partially conventions held by the Watchtower

This list could go on and on. The point is that the Watchtower never makes a big deal out of these fanciful claims. They rather stick to what they believe to be their "logicial" material.

I think a great way to approach somebody who is studying with the JWs is to simply expose them to all of the teachings they hold that put the group at the center of the world. JWs love to tell a potential member "we only read what the bible says". These sorts of crazy beliefs obvioulsy are the opposite. Show the person that they need to get just as much proof for these types of teachings as they would any other teaching from the Watchtower.

It's all about giving that person the tools to think critically and examine things on their own. Don't tell them "this is bad run away!". Instead you want to show them how the Watchtower goes against the rules and principles they teach their potential members are so important. This would mean focusing on how by "just reading the Bible" you never would come to any of these teachings and so there is obviuolsy a heavy amount of interpretation going on (potential JWs are often told they do not interpret the Bible!!!).

20

"Loose Conduct" , what is the true definition?

by jefferywhat in

this term was actually one of the reasons i have started looking into the wtbs, i must be honest and say im am still looking objectively, so please dont avalanche my question.

i am in search for truth!!

does anyone know the actual root meaning of the word asel geia?

drew sagan

Welcome to the forum Jeffery

This resource may be of assistance to you:

Greek Lexicon # 766

I think it is interesting to not that while the Watchtower will typcially define the term in referance to sexual conduct when discussing the texts in which the words appear, in a few instances (as you pointed out) they leave it open ended. Something which seems to be influenced by the need to justifiy internal policies. That said, the fact that the Watchtower doesn't actually site referances for the things stated in the article you proved prove little in the way of malicious intent IMO. I think it simply is a reflection of the Watchtowers authoritative attitue. It most likely is something borrowed from another scholarly work they have sitting on the shelves in brooklyn.

I'm wondering exaclty why this is such an issue for you. Perhaps you could share?